Issue 369: Timed relations

Starting Date: 
2017-10-09
Working Group: 
3
Status: 
Open
Background: 
In the 39th joined meeting of the CIDOC CRM SIG and ISO/TC46/SC4/WG9 and the 32nd FRBR - CIDOC CRM Harmonization meeting, during the discussion about the temporality of properties and  going through different cases about Franscesco examples, Martin presented   a list  of types of substance of relations (issue 329 appendix E) and sig decided to work on   substance of relationships.  HW assigned to  Steve, CEO, Francesco, MD, Achille, Maria to review  and think about  the list of properties and see if they can be pc, activity or something else.
 
Crete, October 2017
Current Proposal: 

Posted by Francsco Beretta on 16/1/2018

Dear All,

Here you find some homework (in fact trainwork) about timed relations.

Best

Francesco 

Posted by Martin on 23/1/2018

Dear Francesco,

My apologies! I just saw that I did not cc you in all of this exchange with Joao. I attach my last version of interpreting your
examples.

Let us work from this on-wards!

I think the first task should be, to define the kind of institutionalized social relationships which come into being and exclusively depend on the existence
of the initiating event.

In the "table of issue 329" I have tried to classify the current CRMbase relations wrt to temporality. I used the term "by assignment" for the above.
Whereas an institutionalized social relationships can come into being implicitly by a justifying event, such as birth, others require a deliberate assignment.
let us discuss, how many distinctions we need.

In German law, someone can "ersitzen" an object: Having a book over two years in loan without contract and without the owner providing evidence of asking it back, it may become ownership of the current keeper or so. I assume it still requires an authoritative decision, or is an exception we don't care. That would mean that an observable state would justify the relation, in contrast to my definition, if authoritative decision of the case were not required.

We may need to split the CRMbase concept of "keeper" into a declared versus a physical one. That distinction is in the scope note, but not in the class.

As a first step, I suggest we should see all cases in which a useful definition based on initializing events is unambiguous.

posted by Francesco on 22/5/2018

Dear all,

Collecting materials in order to prepare a discussion and documentation about a CRM extension devoted to « capturing all social documentation. Its scope will be social norms and social life » (Minutes SIG Cologne 2018), I came across two issues which seem to me to be essential, and about which I would kindly ask you to have a discussion in the SIG.


I will first provide following examples out of historical research / social life.


A. Let assume we have to model following two states of affairs :

    Mr. X was in charge as a full professor of history at Lyon University from date_1 to date_2

    Mr. X taught digital humanities and Python to students from date_1 to date_2

The first state of affairs is about the quality of a person, the second about his/her activity : he was charged to teach history but instead taught DH and a programming language.

The second state of affairs can be modeled as an activity but what about the first one ? I wouldn’t speak about a state, which is confusing, but about a temporal restricted quality of a person. He/she was in possession of this quality but taught something else (activity). This phemenon can be understood in my opinion within the conceptual framework of E3_Condition_State if we enlarge the scope not only to « physical conditions » but also to social phenomena, in a new class called « Social quality » or similar.


B. A second example is about the ownership of property, e.g. a farmhouse, or of a firm, or many different of them at different time spans. Of course we could model all acquisitions and sales of these properties but not only historical sources often do not provide us with sufficient knowledge on how the property was accessed, but also, and primarily, the phenomenon we want to model for studying social life is property as such, it’s amount, it’s evolution, it’s influence on other aspects of social relationships. So the issue is how to model the phenomenon of property as such, and if property (as a power of disposal) is a phenomenon at all.


Considering these two examples, and recent discussions on the SIG list and meetings, and Martin’s prosal concerning symogih.org examples, two issues are raised in my mind which would need some clarification and discussion.


1. Can possession of social qualities, or right of use/power of disposal, or similar kinds of aspects of social life, or event the state of mind or belief of someone, be considered as phenomena ? And therefore be modeled as Temporal entities ? In the point of view of the study of social life, in my opinion, the answer would be positive.

2. About the recent discussions concerning timed relations, i.e. properties having limited validity in time : some of them, if related to social life (those concerning property or the possession of qualities), appear to me to be in fact social phenomena, therefore Temporal entities. They are relevant to social life and can be indirectly oberved (using sources). By the way, historical events are also only indirectly observed and their temporal and spatial projection depends also on the breakdown we choose from an epistemological point of view (e.g. a historical process like a battle can be modelled as one complex activity or the process of the battle can be decomposed in all its stages, as distinct instances of activity).

These are the two issues I’d like to discuss in order to be able to collect and reorder materials and prepare a proposal of classes and properties concerning social norms and life.

 

Posted by Martin on 22/5/2018

On 5/22/2018 10:10 AM, Francesco Beretta wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Collecting materials in order to prepare a discussion and documentation about a CRM extension devoted to « capturing all social documentation. Its scope will be social norms and social life » (Minutes SIG Cologne 2018), I came across two issues which seem to me to be essential, and about which I would kindly ask you to have a discussion in the SIG.
>
>
> I will first provide following examples out of historical research / social life.
>
>
> A. Let assume we have to model following two states of affairs :
>
>     Mr. X was in charge as a full professor of history at Lyon University from date_1 to date_2
>
>     Mr. X taught digital humanities and Python to students from date_1 to date_2
>
> The first state of affairs is about the quality of a person, the second about his/her activity : he was charged to teach history but instead taught DH and a programming language.
>
> The second state of affairs can be modeled as an activity


Yes, indeed
>
> but what about the first one ? I wouldn’t speak about a state, which is confusing, but about a temporal restricted quality of a person. He/she was in possession of this quality but taught something else (activity). This phemenon can be understood in my opinion within the conceptual framework of E3_Condition_State if we enlarge the scope not only to « physical conditions » but also to social phenomena, in a new class called « Social quality » or similar.


If we regard that he had a contract, i.e., a legal status, then we could talk about all contractual relations as temporal entities. The professor has a relationship as professor with the University with an expectation of service provision. I would not talk about a quality, whereas being a child would be a temporary quality.

Sometimes, they seem to appear under "institutions", or "being "institutionalized" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution)
see also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage

Some sociologists may provide some insight.

I see in common, that these relationships are:
1) Socially or legally respected (they affect the behavior of other members of the society).
2) Associated with rights and obligations over their existence.
3) They come into being and end with an explicit act of declaration or indirectly through other publicly acknowledged events, such as via heritage at birth or death.
4) They are as such not observable. Only the social memory of the initializing event or document keeping establishes their on-going validity.

Would you agree with these characteristics?

We could talk about "institutionalized social relations", including employments, ownership, marriage, etc. as kinds of temporal entities.


>
> B. A second example is about the ownership of property, e.g. a farmhouse, or of a firm, or many different of them at different time spans. Of course we could model all acquisitions and sales of these properties but not only historical sources often do not provide us with sufficient knowledge on how the property was accessed, but also, and primarily, the phenomenon we want to model for studying social life is property as such, it’s amount, it’s evolution, it’s influence on other aspects of social relationships. So the issue is how to model the phenomenon of property as such, and if property (as a power of disposal) is a phenomenon at all.
>
>
> Considering these two examples, and recent discussions on the SIG list and meetings, and Martin’s prosal concerning symogih.org examples, two issues are raised in my mind which would need some clarification and discussion.
>
>
> 1. Can possession of social qualities, or right of use/power of disposal, or similar kinds of aspects of social life, or event the state of mind or belief of someone, be considered as phenomena ? And therefore be modeled as Temporal entities ? In the point of view of the study of social life, in my opinion, the answer would be positive.
Agreed.
>
> 2. About the recent discussions concerning timed relations, i.e. properties having limited validity in time : some of them, if related to social life (those concerning property or the possession of qualities), appear to me to be in fact social phenomena, therefore Temporal entities. They are relevant to social life and can be indirectly oberved (using sources).
See above, yes, through sources and memories. Being married may be signaled by a wedding ring.
>
> By the way, historical events are also only indirectly observed and their temporal and spatial projection depends also on the breakdown we choose from an epistemological point of view (e.g. a historical process like a battle can be modelled as one complex activity or the process of the battle can be decomposed in all its stages, as distinct instances of activity).

Sure, the difference being that things like being owner is a passive thing, nothing really happens. The only question is, if actions are compatible with the status. The battle as a whole and in all its detailed atrocities is something that is materially there.
>
> These are the two issues I’d like to discuss in order to be able to collect and reorder materials and prepare a proposal of classes and properties concerning social norms and life.

All the best,

In the 41st joined meeting of the CIDOC CRM SIG and ISO/TC46/SC4/WG9 and the 34th FRBR - CIDOC CRM Harmonization meeting, the sig continued the discussion which has been started by  Francesco's  examples and reviewed Martin's comments on them. The discussion about ‘institutional ownership’ has brought a new temporal entity that tries to capture the state/quality/relation that is brought into being by social acts (and can capture the knowledge available to historians). The sig decided that this will be a starting point for common work to try to capture the information currently proposed to be modelled with timed relations.   At the end the sig proposed that  FB, MD, OE and others should work  on  the foundation  of CRMsoc. The sig decided that this issue will remain open until to find the substance of timed relationships and to open a new issue about modelling social relationships.

Lyon, May 2018

Meetings discussed: