Issue 358: CRMsoc and scope of CRM modules
posted by Martin on 10/1/2018
<proposal>
Dear All,
I propose to withdraw the decision to put the plans model into CRM "base".
The Model becomes very unwieldy now.
I propose to create a CRMsoc (social), with
all plans, rights, norms, laws, business transactions, social relations and their detailed temporal modelling.
I propose to withdraw the decision to put "Observation" into CRMbase.
A proper handling of Observation needs a model of an observed Situation, with adequate
constraints for the things and relationships that can be observed.
I propose to keep Observation in CRMSci. To be clarified how the stratification with CRMInf is achieved.
I propose to give up the condition that CRMbase keeps exclusively all superproperties necessary to reach all elements in
a CRM compatible graph.
I propose to allow extensions, with "special mark-up and permission", to explicitly declare additional superproperties, as few
as possible, and clearly justified by a distinct subject.
Temporality of relationships appears to be a topic with a set of distinct ontological patterns, which need to be considered separately.
Depending on the pattern, it should be decided into which module an explicit description of a temporal validity of a relationship
will belong, regardless if the "time agnostic" version exists in CRMbase.
posted by Oyvind on 12/1/2018
Dear Martin, and all,
> Am 10.01.2018 um 21:21 schrieb Martin Doerr <martin@ics.forth.gr>:
>
> Dear All,
>
> I propose to withdraw the decision to put the plans model into CRM "base".
> The Model becomes very unwieldy now.
>
> I propose to create a CRMsoc (social), with
> all plans, rights, norms, laws, business transactions, social relations and their detailed temporal modelling.
Maybe this could be a place to include historical accounting as well?
posted by Francesco Berreta on 15/1/2018
Dear Martin, dear all,
Le 12.01.18 à 09:06, Øyvind Eide a écrit :
> Dear Martin, and all,
>
>> Am 10.01.2018 um 21:21 schrieb Martin Doerr <martin@ics.forth.gr>:
>>
>> Dear All,
>>
>> I propose to withdraw the decision to put the plans model into CRM "base".
>> The Model becomes very unwieldy now.
>>
>> I propose to create a CRMsoc (social), with
>> all plans, rights, norms, laws, business transactions, social relations and their detailed temporal modelling.
> Maybe this could be a place to include historical accounting as well?
On the one side, as we discussed in the last SIG Meeting, the whole CRM is, or most parts of it are, about history: therefore there's no need to have a specific extension about history. The dataforhistory.org project is accordingly limited to managing profiles devoted to specific subdomains of historical research (meant in its broadest sense), it is not about creating an official CRM extension for historical research.
On the other side, most objects of historical research are related to social life and consequently it seems very useful to have some more classes and properties modelling this domain. In a specific extension.
I therefore fully support Martin's proposal.
>
>> I propose to withdraw the decision to put "Observation" into CRMbase.
>> A proper handling of Observation needs a model of an observed Situation, with adequate
>> constraints for the things and relationships that can be observed.
>> I propose to keep Observation in CRMSci. To be clarified how the stratification with CRMInf is achieved.
>>
>> I propose to give up the condition that CRMbase keeps exclusively all superproperties necessary to reach all elements in
>> a CRM compatible graph.
>> I propose to allow extensions, with "special mark-up and permission", to explicitly declare additional superproperties, as few
>> as possible, and clearly justified by a distinct subject.
This seems to be a good concept, but we then need a flexible and performant way of easily analyze and visualize the complex world of the CRM and it's extensions. One should be able to filter in and out extensions without loosing consistency, explore inheritance of properties, etc.
>> Temporality of relationships appears to be a topic with a set of distinct ontological patterns, which need to be considered separately.
>> Depending on the pattern, it should be decided into which module an explicit description of a temporal validity of a relationship
>> will belong, regardless if the "time agnostic" version exists in CRMbase.
I agree with this proposal and then discuss, at a later time, if a couple of new classes should be introduced to CRMbase, in addition to the existing properties with limited temporal validity, to provide a general view on this issue that could be used by the whole community.
In the 40th joined meeting of the CIDOC CRM SIG and ISO/TC46/SC4/WG9 and the 33nd FRBR - CIDOC CRM Harmonization meeting, the crm-sig discussed the proposal by Martin and decided the following actions:
About Plans model: The crm sig accepted MD’s proposal to withdraw the plans model (classes and properties) from CRMbase. The numbers of classes and properties will be deleted from CRMbase and will not be marked as deprecated since version 6.2.3 of CRMbase is still “In Progress” and it has not been published yet. The crm-sig decided that when classes and properties are deleted from published versions, they will be marked as “deprecated” in all subsequent versions regardless of the version status. In any other case they will be simply deleted.
posted by Velios on 9/5/2018
I am continuing with one of the sub-issues which says:
"About simplifying the template for the description of the family models: During the discussion about describing the new family model CRMsoc, the sig decided the description of each family model should be self-contained. The crm-sig assigned TV to propose simplified template for extensions."
Following the last SIG meeting I received the current template used for extensions from Chryssoula. The current template is actually simple and, in my view, suitable but it has not always been followed (for example in earlier drafts of CRMsci which initiated my original comments). As far as the document template is concerned I propose that it remains the same. Only that it is followed more strictly (for example, for the CRMsci version 1.2.5 I have proposed the removal of several sections which are not part of the template - see issue 332).
posted by Francesco on 22/5/2018
Dear all,
Collecting materials in order to prepare a discussion and documentation about a CRM extension devoted to « capturing all social documentation. Its scope will be social norms and social life » (Minutes SIG Cologne 2018), I came across two issues which seem to me to be essential, and about which I would kindly ask you to have a discussion in the SIG.
I will first provide following examples out of historical research / social life.
A. Let assume we have to model following two states of affairs :
Mr. X was in charge as a full professor of history at Lyon University from date_1 to date_2
Mr. X taught digital humanities and Python to students from date_1 to date_2
The first state of affairs is about the quality of a person, the second about his/her activity : he was charged to teach history but instead taught DH and a programming language.
The second state of affairs can be modeled as an activity but what about the first one ? I wouldn’t speak about a state, which is confusing, but about a temporal restricted quality of a person. He/she was in possession of this quality but taught something else (activity). This phemenon can be understood in my opinion within the conceptual framework of E3_Condition_State if we enlarge the scope not only to « physical conditions » but also to social phenomena, in a new class called « Social quality » or similar.
B. A second example is about the ownership of property, e.g. a farmhouse, or of a firm, or many different of them at different time spans. Of course we could model all acquisitions and sales of these properties but not only historical sources often do not provide us with sufficient knowledge on how the property was accessed, but also, and primarily, the phenomenon we want to model for studying social life is property as such, it’s amount, it’s evolution, it’s influence on other aspects of social relationships. So the issue is how to model the phenomenon of property as such, and if property (as a power of disposal) is a phenomenon at all.
Considering these two examples, and recent discussions on the SIG list and meetings, and Martin’s prosal concerning symogih.org examples, two issues are raised in my mind which would need some clarification and discussion.
1. Can possession of social qualities, or right of use/power of disposal, or similar kinds of aspects of social life, or event the state of mind or belief of someone, be considered as phenomena ? And therefore be modeled as Temporal entities ? In the point of view of the study of social life, in my opinion, the answer would be positive.
2. About the recent discussions concerning timed relations, i.e. properties having limited validity in time : some of them, if related to social life (those concerning property or the possession of qualities), appear to me to be in fact social phenomena, therefore Temporal entities. They are relevant to social life and can be indirectly oberved (using sources). By the way, historical events are also only indirectly observed and their temporal and spatial projection depends also on the breakdown we choose from an epistemological point of view (e.g. a historical process like a battle can be modelled as one complex activity or the process of the battle can be decomposed in all its stages, as distinct instances of activity).
These are the two issues I’d like to discuss in order to be able to collect and reorder materials and prepare a proposal of classes and properties concerning social norms and life.
Posted by Martin on 22/5/2018
On 5/22/2018 10:10 AM, Francesco Beretta wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Collecting materials in order to prepare a discussion and documentation about a CRM extension devoted to « capturing all social documentation. Its scope will be social norms and social life » (Minutes SIG Cologne 2018), I came across two issues which seem to me to be essential, and about which I would kindly ask you to have a discussion in the SIG.
>
>
> I will first provide following examples out of historical research / social life.
>
>
> A. Let assume we have to model following two states of affairs :
>
> Mr. X was in charge as a full professor of history at Lyon University from date_1 to date_2
>
> Mr. X taught digital humanities and Python to students from date_1 to date_2
>
> The first state of affairs is about the quality of a person, the second about his/her activity : he was charged to teach history but instead taught DH and a programming language.
>
> The second state of affairs can be modeled as an activity
Yes, indeed
>
> but what about the first one ? I wouldn’t speak about a state, which is confusing, but about a temporal restricted quality of a person. He/she was in possession of this quality but taught something else (activity). This phemenon can be understood in my opinion within the conceptual framework of E3_Condition_State if we enlarge the scope not only to « physical conditions » but also to social phenomena, in a new class called « Social quality » or similar.
If we regard that he had a contract, i.e., a legal status, then we could talk about all contractual relations as temporal entities. The professor has a relationship as professor with the University with an expectation of service provision. I would not talk about a quality, whereas being a child would be a temporary quality.
Sometimes, they seem to appear under "institutions", or "being "institutionalized" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institution)
see also : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage
Some sociologists may provide some insight.
I see in common, that these relationships are:
1) Socially or legally respected (they affect the behavior of other members of the society).
2) Associated with rights and obligations over their existence.
3) They come into being and end with an explicit act of declaration or indirectly through other publicly acknowledged events, such as via heritage at birth or death.
4) They are as such not observable. Only the social memory of the initializing event or document keeping establishes their on-going validity.
Would you agree with these characteristics?
We could talk about "institutionalized social relations", including employments, ownership, marriage, etc. as kinds of temporal entities.
>
> B. A second example is about the ownership of property, e.g. a farmhouse, or of a firm, or many different of them at different time spans. Of course we could model all acquisitions and sales of these properties but not only historical sources often do not provide us with sufficient knowledge on how the property was accessed, but also, and primarily, the phenomenon we want to model for studying social life is property as such, it’s amount, it’s evolution, it’s influence on other aspects of social relationships. So the issue is how to model the phenomenon of property as such, and if property (as a power of disposal) is a phenomenon at all.
>
>
> Considering these two examples, and recent discussions on the SIG list and meetings, and Martin’s prosal concerning symogih.org examples, two issues are raised in my mind which would need some clarification and discussion.
>
>
> 1. Can possession of social qualities, or right of use/power of disposal, or similar kinds of aspects of social life, or event the state of mind or belief of someone, be considered as phenomena ? And therefore be modeled as Temporal entities ? In the point of view of the study of social life, in my opinion, the answer would be positive.
Agreed.
>
> 2. About the recent discussions concerning timed relations, i.e. properties having limited validity in time : some of them, if related to social life (those concerning property or the possession of qualities), appear to me to be in fact social phenomena, therefore Temporal entities. They are relevant to social life and can be indirectly oberved (using sources).
See above, yes, through sources and memories. Being married may be signaled by a wedding ring.
>
> By the way, historical events are also only indirectly observed and their temporal and spatial projection depends also on the breakdown we choose from an epistemological point of view (e.g. a historical process like a battle can be modelled as one complex activity or the process of the battle can be decomposed in all its stages, as distinct instances of activity).
Sure, the difference being that things like being owner is a passive thing, nothing really happens. The only question is, if actions are compatible with the status. The battle as a whole and in all its detailed atrocities is something that is materially there.
>
> These are the two issues I’d like to discuss in order to be able to collect and reorder materials and prepare a proposal of classes and properties concerning social norms and life.
All the best,